"WHORES LIKE US"

This interview was conducted during 1998 by Trevor Donohue.

Names have been changed to protect the guilty.

Do you want to ask some questions?

YES

'Okay this is for the book 'Whores Like Us' non-derogative title and we'll just talk about things that have happened

How old are you - roughly?
40 years of age.

How long have you been working on the street?
Since the age of 24 .

24! So that's I6 years?
That's right.

How long have you been involved with drugs? Same amount
of time? Yeah - roughly about a couple of months out - yeah.

So what do you think comes first? Prostitution or drugs?
Prostitution came first - a necessity to get away from my fiancée as I was working two jobs at the time and he was harassing me and my boss gave me an ultimatum ~ either I had to get a restraining order to keep him away or I left work.

So when did you first come into prostitution?
When I was bashed severely by my boyfriend and I had nowhere to live because I was too scared to go home and the girl next door put me up and she was a working girl. She introduced me to working as a means of support to pay my way because I couldn't go back to my normal straight jobs.

So how old were you then?
24

I was talking to someone today and they started working as a prostitute when they were 30 and according to statistics that's I%. Normally it starts a lot earlier than 30.
Yes well nine times out of ten it even starts a lot earlier than that it can start at the age of I5. A lot of young girls start off with running away from home.

That's the general thing. Victims of problems at home.
Yes, then rather than sort them out and have counselling because a lot of parents don't know how to deal with runaway.

So what was the worst experience you had do you think?
I've had several very, bad experiences. One that comes to mind is when we had a party at tile parlour and I used to work for Pete Wolf was one of the largest parlour owners in Melbourne. He owned anything up to 30-34 parlours.

That was when they were illegal wasn't it?
Yes that's right. A lot of the girls were not allowed to work unless ...

Were you involved in any of the police involvement at the time? Pete Wolf was well known to be in association with the police for protection.
He was paying the police for protection. He was handing envelopes to different officers various times of the week because we had two different shifts of police officers. We had some during the day, we had our. day shift officers that used to come and make false busts on the girls. Whether the girls quoted the police or not the girls still copped the bust. And what happened was a week earlier one night when there was four of us - usually there was six of us girls on - but a couple of them didn't turn up for work so there was only four of us on this particular evening and the week before what happened was we were sitting around and there was a knock on the back door One of the girls asked who it was, and he yelled out "One of Pete's sitters". We used to have men sitting watching us to make sure we didn't rip off the books.

Was it for your protection as well?
Supposedly. Mainly Pete had them there so the girls wouldn't rip off the books - like get a

How aggressive was he
He's stuffed now. He's down the tubes. He looks like an old man. He's a wreck. At the time how aggressive was he?
He was very aggressive because a lot of the men from Sydney, a few of the guys from Sydney came down and tried to take over. We had a couple of gun battles, parlours shot up while the girls were still inside working. Some of the girls would sleep in the parlour overnight and several of them were set alight, while the girls were still in the parlour.

Yeah, I remember that.
The parlour I was in, just off Nicholson Street ...

What was the name of it - did it have a name?
It was called the Little Terrace and ...

Was that near the corner of Johnson Street?
Yeah it wasn't far from it. There was four parlours not far from the little parlour and they were called the strip and mainly Pete used to put all the junkies down in the strip.

Was Pete Wolf at the time using or was that later? Was he a drug addict himself?
No. Not when I first met him. He was dead straight in every sense of the word. When he met his wife, his wife to be, he was in his 40's and she was only 17. He married her a year later. Lorraine was her name and Lorraine actually O'd'd. An overdose of pills and then had a whack of heroin and then had some more pills on top of that. That was it. The Mansion, and it was called the International that was on the highway going toward St Kilda.

I know the Mansion on the junction down there?
Yes.

It turned into a nite club later?
Yes.

Really - was that a brothel?
Yes, it ,was,a a mansion.

.Did you know the place BB Backs at all?
I've heard of it.

Yes, that was where you used to go and get your dope as well. It was a really strange place. It used to have all the.walls fur lined. Now its the Californian Suite.
I don't know what it is called now.

Yes, its open again now in St Kilda Road in St Kilda. I think its called the Californian Suite.
Well anyway to get back to the party what happened was we were robbed. We opened the door thinking it was one of the sitters coming to, check on us and actually it was a band of 3 guys. They all had guns and they grabbed us girls

.

What age were you at the time - roughly?
I was 26 at the time.

This is I999 this goes back along time!
Anyway what happened was they got us to all lay down on the floor and us girls used to have a tin stuck on the cabinet door and every job we did we had to put it in a small envelope and put our name on it and put it in the tin and at the end of the night Pete used to come and take all the money out and give us our half and he'd take his half and none of the money was to be touched until the end of the night and he came and sorted it out and did the books. Well those guys they robbed it. They tore the tin off the wall and they took it and while one of them was doing that one of them was watching over us.

What! Did they have shotguns on you at this time?
Yes.

Were they masked? In balaclavas?
Yes they had balaclavas on. They were all dressed in dark clothes, either dark denim clothes or black.

What ethnic or Australian?
We could only tell by their speech. There were two ethnics and the other one was an Aussie one of the girls was taken into the bathroom and she was raped anally.

They sound like guys with prison experience?
Yes. I was, because I tried to talk to him, I copped the hiding. My face was bruised and I was gagged and tied up and us girls were petrified. What we did was - they locked us in the toilets and they drove a 4" nail in the top and bottom to keep us in there. Then what they did did was they shot up all the front lounge room where the clients sit and they smashed the TVs. Anything of value they took. They took our handbags

.

Do you think it was a revenge thing?
Yes I do think it was because there was another guy who was running parlours In the vicinity and he wanted to buy Pete out but Pete wouldn’t have anything to do with it. So if us girls got caught talking to any of the girls who worked in the opposite parlours we were told we were going to be black banned. We'd never get a job in any other parlour.

So you were bashed and that was all at that time?
At that time. Then a week later when we had this party I was given, because I don’t touch pills, its happened to me several times over- the years - my drink was spiked and some kind of tablet I don't know and anyway I fell asleep and when I woke up in the in the morning they had a garage out the back and in the garage they had this hearse and I woke up locked inside this hearse, in the back of it where the dead people lay And I was really really scared and that was a warning that I should stop working for Pete Wolf.

Had you been attacked or assaulted or sexual assaulted ?
Well I had been sexually assaulted. Not to my recollection only that I woke up with all cum all over me and I was a mess.

How many times would you think working on the street would you have been raped?
At least easy a dozen. Easy off and on over the years because I only work off and on. Say in a year I'd say that I have about working 4 weeks at a time flat out day and night and then I stop and I don't work for months on end.

Has anyone ever been charged over rape?
For the rape of myself? No. I have reported it to the police and the police have told me that because I'm out there I deserve what I get.

That seems to be the attitude - that you deserve it - you're not a woman - you deserve it because you're a prostitute?
Yeah. And if I didn't want things like that happening to me I shouldn't be out there.

What are your connections with or any at all with The Prostitutes Collective. What do you think of them ?
Well they're good in one sense that you can go and tell all your problems to them plus they give out forms and write out statistics of things that have happened to you.

They bring out the bad names list which is good too.
To warn the other girls - to help them but support wise there's not a great deal there. Only to sit and talk to you and to comfort you and say everything's going to be alright but when you really need them say at I I o'clock at night there's nobody there.

There',5 a breakdown there. At times I've noticed too because I've tried to ring up and get help for the girls and there's no one there. The only thing is they give you a phone number. They do a great job by the way - it's just that they should have more financial backup.
It should be a 24-hour crisis centre because when I was raped recently at 3 o'clock in the morning I was held for several hours at knifepoint and there wasn't a great deal I could do.

Was this one guy or more?
This is one -guy and I was not the only girl he's done it to.

So he's still active?
Yes he's still active. I have seen him face to face.

You know they want a description down at the Prostitutes Collective so they can put it on their bad mugs list.
Yes I realise that. I have told the girls individually - the girls that I know and come in contact with regularly.- I have told them about what he looks like but he also changes his car.

What is his general description?
His general description would be about 18 stone.

Quite heavyset?
Very heavy set. I'd say he'd be 6'2".

So you're pretty powerless against him?
Ah he's a big man. I mean the size of my leg would be the size of his arm. He's a massive guy. He has a beard.

Why do you think he raped you? Because of the thrill of it or because you didn't have money?
For the thrill of it. To see us cower. Because the more I cowered the happier he was.

So someday he's going to hurt someone really bad? I have that impression yes. Because ...
I feel, I have seen him at 4.30 in the afternoon when I have been walking up Barkly Street and I've seen his ute drive by.

So he drives a ute? You wouldn't know the number?
It's a Bronco. It's got a silver stallion on the side. It's two tone. It's beige and the other colour is white.

And you wouldn't have any idea of the number?
No. He drove off with no lights on and the day that I seen him at 4.30 in the afternoon, I ran as fast as I could to the corner to try and get the rego number but it was too late he'd got to St Kilda Road when I was up at Barkly Street.

Would you be prepared to testify against him? Yes.
Definitely?

I00%
Now I'm just trying to establish the relationship between the police and the girls working.

Well as for-taking names and that they are good. As for support and help its virtually non existent. One time that recently in the last twelve months and on several other. Occassions I've been robbed by clients and I've run up to the police within 3 minutes after it happening and I've told the police exactly what has happened, the car they’re driving and everything and the.police haven't even moved.

Yes, but you're working an illegal job and more or less if they take action you'd be charged for working as a prostitute.
Oh it doesn't matter I'm prepared to take the consequence,-, of everything I do. .,

So the ground rules are they're not prepared really to intercede
If some mug rips you off? Thats rite, even physically being abused they say You have to go down and make a statement and then they’ll worry about chasing him up but by then he'd be long gone. But if they took action straight away they'd catch up with him within too blocks.

What do you think - I'm not really going into this because this is a different story - do you think there is much police corruption?
Yes. Because I've had the police come to my door after they've followed my deceased girlfriend home with a client, she's come in with a client, and they've knocked on the door 5 minutes later and there's been three police officers that sat down in my lounge and I had my bedroom door open, and I had a red teddy, like a body suit on a coat hanger on my wardrobe door and one of the officer's seen it and also they gave me an ultimatum either because they found underneath the sink in the kitchen a 1/4 of a gram, a I/4 of ...

Explain how much
Well there was a gram of Speed there.

So Amphetamines right?
Yes and there was only a I/4 of it left out of the gram.

So how much was left there, how many hits and how much?
Well it would have been about $20 worth.

So that's nothing really?
It would have been about $20 worth of Speed and Amphetamines and he gave me an ultimatum - either I put the teddy on and trot around in it for a little while or they'd take me down to the station and charge me with the Speed.

You were supposed to undress and then put the teddy on? Yes

And this is just for their gratification to watch you?
And I felt humiliated and degraded.

Did they expect sexual favours or did they just expect
Yes - not the other two - but he did, he told me, he said to me that he would be back later and I had no intentions of seeing him but what could I do

How long ago was this by the way?
About 8 years ago.

Right so today it doesn't really ... ?
Yes well it still covers as of today because I've had an officer last year pick me up and I didn't know at the time, and he took me down to Edwards Lake, this park here - what's the take here in St Kilda - St Kilda Park Lake?

Oh! Albert Park Lake?
Albert Park Lake - he took me there and he gave me an ultimatum either I give him sexual favours for nothing or- he'd take me down to the station and book me.

But this isn't a thing that happens regulars does it?
Well this is the second time its happened within 2 years.

well that’s not a regular thing then?
No.

You can’t say there are corrupt policemen who do it regularly?
No.

I'm trying to establish reactions to the police and the working girls.
After the station got burnt down for the second time.

Which station are we talking about?
St Kilda Station

Police Station?
No St Kilda.....

Oh Right! The Railway Station?
Yes the train station. A friend of mine - I went to buy a half off him.

"What's a half?
Of heroin.

What does that mean?
That's a half is say a quarter weight of an ounce.

How many hits would you get out of it?
One hit.

That's fiifty bucks usually?
$50 deal and I went to buy that off him and he went to his stash where he hides it near the station and I didn't see the police sneak up behind us and also he'd lost his ring earlier that he'd lost it in the area where he hides his heroin. I was looking for his ring right day a when he was looking,, for his .... anyway we both had our heads down and our backsides up and we're looking along the grass edge and next minute the police tooted their horn behind us and we both stood up, we knew what to say, that we were friends and that he'd lost his ring and I was helping him look for it which was true to a certain extent and anyway after the one woman and two men officers got out of the car and pulled him aside and the men police strip searched him and found nothing and let him go then they came over to me and I think it must have been party time for them because they harrassed me something shocking. Just around the corner from where the car was there's about a foot of cement that you can stand on while you’re standing on Fitzroy Street and look into the station you can't see. Well most of the men go behind there and urinate and there's all urination like along that wall about as high as your shoulder and I'm 5'4" so it would come tip roughly to my shoulders when the urinate and the woman police officer took me around there and told me to take my clothes off.

This is a full strip?
A full strip.

What time of the day?
At 2 o'clock In the afternoon and the traffic was pretty heavy around there -it was on a weekend.

So how long ago are we looking at?
About a year.

A year ago right?
That's was just before the wire fence

Yes. That was before the renovations and I went up. SO that was mid last year. Yeah it would have been - early last year or mid last year which is I998 and this woman told me to take my clothes off and I only had my bathers on underneath and so I took my T-shirt off and I took my shorts off and I was standing there and she said well come on take off the rest and I said "but I'm out in public" and she said "I don't care an f where you are - a fuck where you are" - she said "I'm telling you to take it off now" and I said "take me back to the police station" and she said "I'm not taking you anywhere you'll do as I tell you". With that the two police officers took a step forward, they were round about I0 yards away from me, but they could hear what was going on, and one of the officers was kind enough to turn his back but was still listening to the conversation and while the other one had his face forward watching what was going on and he could see everything and anybody from the main street from Fitzroy Street when the roundabout up the top of Canterbury Road. They made me strip off and she told me to put my hands on the wall and bend over where they'd urinated and I refused to and when she pushed me then I started to go backwards and I pushed him back and the two officers came forward and cuffed me.

Were you naked at this time?
No. I was topless. I'd just managed to pull me pants up but she made me spread my legs and bend over and she spread my cheeks. And that was in public.

Did you think at anytime they could have been inebriated at all?
No they weren't they were straight and they were laughing. They were making a joke out of it.

But that doesn't happen every day sort of thing does it?
It can happen if you're in the position for them to do so. Yes.

That's another thing. Do you think because of the policewoman that's really slowed down the amount of prostitutes working? Because I noticed the female police won't take shit off anyone which I've noticed the decline over the years - only half as many girls working as there used to be say 5 years ago and I've noticed lately there don't seem to be the same
Do you agree or not?

amount of policewomen and I notice that more girls arc working.
Yes, definitely. There's no doubt about it. No matter- how mellow I am, how nicely spoken I am towards the officer, because to cause no friction whatsoever, to co-operate in every sense of the word there's still that animosity.

You are an easy going person and you aren't vicious or violent and you're not inclined to violence yourself I know that.
That's irrelevant. Even I've had clients come to the room and not have any money and force themselves upon me or try to and I've had to use me wits and use strategy as in cuddling them and pretending to make up to them and giving them a good service and as soon as I get close enough to the door I'm out that door but that's happened to me on quite a few occasions - on an average of about twice a month it happens.

Talk about now the disease on the streets
Yes, that is very prevelent

Okay so what we’ll do is we'll start with the basics everyone is terrified of Aids but we've got to go right through the spectrum down from crabs, to lice, to scabies to gonorrhea to syphyllis and different things okay?
Going back many years ago when I first started working I got gonorhea the very first week I was working because we were not allowed to use french letters.

Was this working for Pete Wolf?
Yes. And I knew nothing about sexual - I was very naive

Pete Wolf's was the very first parlour you worked for?
Yes. Actually I never even went in hotels and got picked up by guys conservative in that respect. I only had one boyfriend before I started working and I was with him 7 years and I held my virginity up until I was 2I. I went with him for 4 years and lived with him for 3. After I turned 2I that's when I started living with him

Is that the guy who was violent?
Yes. This is the one that was violent.

Weren't you saying that one time you were pregnant?
Yes.

And what happened about that?
I couldn't stand up and Mrs Patrick - Mum Patrick - seen the blood everywhere and they wrapped the blanket around me, a cotton blanket, and raced me off to the Women's Hospital

And as a result of that could you have any other children? Or could you have a child?
Well what happened was they told me I aborted and I was very naive I didn't know what aborted meant and Mrs Patrick explained it to me that I'd lost the baby and they also done tests - well I never had intercourse, sex with him for 6 weeks later I think, about 3 weeks I was bleeding after I lost the baby and I didn't have intercourse for about 6 weeks later and when I did it used to hurt and I had tests done and that because I was trying to fall pregnant again and I couldn't fall pregnant so I went to the Women's Hospital and I was under them for 2 years and they did various tests, blood tests various tests, urinal tests for 2 weeks and all this and they told me that through the hidings and that I'd gotten.

Had you been beaten repeatedly?
Yes.

It was a regular thing?
Yes it was a regular thing. They told me that my womb was tilted and that I'd have to go under therapy, have an operation and then have to go under therapy to bring my womb back to normal

So have you ever had a pregnancy since?
No I have not.

So virtually at your age you can forget about having children?
Yes. Unless I have my womb operated on or have artificial insemination then that would be the only way but also the doctors told me that I am very highly strung and I couldn't relax enough to fall pregnant. There's no reason why I can't fall pregnant except for my womb's tilted and if I had the operation I would have no problem in bearing., a child. But my mother went through the change of life at 39 and I've recently had a hormone test done, blood test done, and they've told me, my doctor has told me, my estrogen was zilch - I had none. So because I had two, recently I've had two strokes they told me he was too scared for me to go on hormones.

Right we'll go back - we were talking about disease and things that happened to you working - you had gonorrhea in your early experiences of working in the parlour?
Yes and we used to have this doctor down in Rathdowne Street who we could go to and what happened was he'd give you a triple booster and it would knock You out for the night and 'it would knock you around, believe me, it knocks you around and you can't move because the infection is discarded all in one go and its a horrible experience to go through.

You wouldn't know what it was?
I didn't know what it was. I went down there and he did a test on me and told me that I had gonorrhoea. Look I'd only had 'It for ') days because I went for a check up every week you see so I was lucky in that respect so he gave me a triple booster and he gave me a letter telling Pete that I wasn't, to work that night but he said that the following night I'd be alright for work. Well I went home - I thought my whole stomach was going to drop out through my vagina because the triple shots that he gives you gets rid of it all in one go and its just like one big blob of jelly that passes through you and I wore a panty shield, what they call a panty shield.

But this is for gonorrhoea. I've never heard of a treatment like that to be quite honest
Well trust me.

No I believe what you say.
That's what all us girls went through. Every one of us. Every one that's worked for Pete Wolf in the early stages right, before he had to have it, because he used to drive a Wolfourghini around. He had two of them blown up - this is when they were fighting for the parlours and the guns were being used and the parlours going up in flames and one of the girls - I forget her name, Susie something, she had a I4 year old son and because she'd left Pete and went working for the opposition Pete turned up at her place with another two guys and they permanently damaged her eye.

Did Pete Wolf himself use violence or did he use other people?
Yes. He did it himself.

Did he ever hit you?
Not not myself. But I have seen him get Rocky, he owns the parlour with under- aged girls working there in Rathdowne Street.

Is this a legal parlour now?
The parlour is that he's got a permit for and the girls are aged between I5 and I9.

Okay so did you pick up any more infectious diseases?
The only thing I've ever had is thrush and trike.

What’s trike?
Trike is also a sexually transmitted disease.

What about body lice and crabs and scabies?
Well crabs I have never- had. I've been very very lucky in that aspect but I have seen some clients literally the animals can take them for a walk, they've been that badly covered in them and a European guy said to me once 'no worries for you, you spray, with mortien, and he used to use Mortein. I kicked him out and stripped my bed

Apparently there was a young guy down there recently who was just covered with ringworms?
Yes,! That's right. Yes. And ringworms are very highly contagious also. When you actually do receive a client and do take him back to your room its advisable to not only check their penis like in squares from the bottom between the two balls through the two genitals and you squeeze the tube up until vou see the top of the penis and you have a clear liquid coming out which is love juice. You can tell the difference between love juice and urine. Urine is not tacky in any way and this is how you check them, When you put the juices between your thumb and your pointy finger and you just move it slightly then put the two fingers together then slowly pull apart and hold it up to the light with the tacky one which is love juice right you can have a look - it's supposed to be clear. And if its clear like water that you can see through and there's no dots or blemishes or anything in it that means that they're clear. They've got no infection. But if there is any dots or any yellow mucous or anything tacky like that in the clear fluid that means he's got an infection. You have to be careful because they can urinate it out. Sometimes a client will want to go to the toilet before you'd give them the service - this is back in them days - and what happens if they go to the toilet before you get to see them for the service you can't check them for at least half an hour later because it takes half an hour for the fluid to come through the tube again.

But surely when you're working on the streets a lot of the time your not fully with it under a condition of drugs and you wouldn't be doing all this really close scrutiny all the time?
Yes. My oath. It's your well being and your life regardless to how off your face you are. I have even gone to the point of using a lighter because they never had an overhead light in their car.

Right this is mainly doing jobs in the car?
Yes. I've also used packets of Wet Ones and in the Wet Ones I've put disinfectant or mouthwash with a disinfectant in it.

How often do you have sex without a condom?
Never. Not on the street, ever. Ever since I've worked Pete Wolf I've never ever worked on the street and I've been made offers and even extra money for not using a condom but it's not worth it because you're taking your- life in your own hands nowadays. It's like Russian Roulette.

"What about oral sex?
Same thing because you're passing body fluids and body fluids means my fluid to their penis and their penis fluid to my mouth.

Right, so either of you could be passing the germs?
That's right. It's one thing you don't do. Even for oral sex you do not under any circumstance do not do oral without a french letter. There's still body fluids. How many of the girls do you think would be working without condoms out on the street? At least three quarters.

You think that many?
Yes, because I've had clients come up to me and ask without a french letter ...

we're talking about actually working on the street now.

We were talking about three quarters of the girls you say would be having sex without condoms?
Definitely. The reason I know that is because clients have come up and asked me specifically for that request of having oral without a french letter and they've been prepared to pay me extra for it and I've declined and they've turned around and said to me well you know - do you know of any girls that will and I say "look I can't speak for the other girls - you'll have to ask them. Well I've seen them go across the road and up the road and talk to various girls and they have gone off with various girls and I have seen the girls get in the car and drive off - because that is specifically what he's wanted and he was prepared to pay the extra for it. So the girl to my knowledge would have had to have done it without a french letter.

Have you heard.of any of the girls becoming diseased through doing oral sex?
Yes. Several girls over the years I've worked and recently specially down the street. I've even had a client tell me that he received gonorrhea through oral. She gave him oral and then put a french letter on for sex and he ended up - a married man - he ended up with gonorrhea. She had gonorrhoea of the throat.

It wasn't through the genitals - they both had gonorrhoea in the throat? Yes.

And neither of them had it through the genitals.
No. He ended up with it through the genitals through her giving him oral. And he was married and he was too scared to have intercourse without a french letter but he had oral without a french letter. He had oral without a french letter and sex with a french letter. He's had part oral right and he got gonori-bea through that.

We'll talk about some of the customers - what do you call them mainly then? Are they clients, mugs or ...?
No I call them clients. Actually I see that they're gentlemen, they work hard for their money and they go without some things sometimes - most of the men go without something some of the time, or most of the time cause they're married men and they go without things so that they can come and see us and I consider them clients mainly because they want an affair without. the hassles and ties of an affair and the stress of keeping a girlfriend

They really just want to get off in other words?
They come to see us girls mainly - well I've got regulars, gentlemen that I've been seeing for 8 years or more- my gardner is one, my V-line man is another-. I've got a judge that I see.

An active judge is he?
Yes. Actually he's in County Court, very high up. I have a lawyer, actually I have two lawyers - one doctor

.so, you're covering a wide spectrum of people - labourers and
Oh yes. They're not just labourers. I have a few business men also. I even have a millionaire who comes down and brought me several expensive gifts that I’ve handed back, given back because I haven’t wanted any ties. He brought me a race horse.

How long ago was that?
Four years ago - five years ago. My brother and my mother said he used to come down from Albury. He bought me an MG, and he bought a bunch of a dozen red roses with a big red bow across the front of the bonnet. A powder blue MG because I told him that was the car I loved for my own personal use if I was to have one. I Then I woke up one morning and mom came racing in and said there's something for you out the driveway. Then I went out to the driveway and there's this beautiful powder blue MG with a big red bow on it and a dozen roses with a card and I opened the card and read it and it had 'to my sweet late little lady a little something to remember me by". Because he proposed to.me a fortnight before and I declined.

So there was no real feeling between you and that particular client?
Not from my side no - but from his side yes there was. He'd pay for me to go and spend a weekend with him and he used to give me two grand - a thousand dollars a day and I'd only ever get to see him for half a day.

You sound a bit slurred now on the tape?
Yes, well - a little tired too.

And you haven't had a whack?
Yes I have.

Okay, so you're a 40 year old woman?
Yes

You've been working virtually in parlours and on the street for I4 years?
Yes

And what are your plans - what is your future?
Well I have gone halvies In a house with a gentleman that I love dearly. He's good to me, he doesn't belt me, he's very understanding. I've also gone for a loan $I5,000 that I'm paying back and doing quite well with renovating the house and I will be with this gentleman until the day he dies.

SO you're really hoping to finish up completely? How hard are you going to find it to leave drugs behind you?
When I go home I can't say I miss it because actually I dread coming down. But what I think of when I'm home and I know that I'm coming down, I know its only for a short period of time and I can cope with it. If I thought in anyway that I had to come back and live permanent I think I wouldn't he able to cope. I wouldn't be able to handle it knowing that I had nowhere else to go but to here. I couldn't base the rest of my life on the thought of living down here.

You mentioned to me that you had two strokes? Yes

What brought them on?
Well I had one - my brother was separating from his wife and he had a lot of problems because she didn't leave this State but she cleared off and no one could find her. We never seen the children for nearly 3 months and my brother was worried and so was I for that matter because I love my little niece and nephews and they love me dearly, they'd come and spend weekends, a week here and a week there with us when my little niece's mother lets her - anyway what were we talking about?

You were talking about the clients- what sort of people are the clients of the street girls? Oh yeah! Then we were talking about my life.

Yeah - what are you heading for - what direction?
I'm heading towards a good direction at the moment. I'm putting one foot in front of the other and I'm doing it slowly. I find if I take each day as it comes and deal with it at the time I can cope with everything but if I have to plan and do this and do that I find that there's other things that crop up in the meantime that I fill my time with and what I've planned to do gets pushed by the wayside and it virtually never gets done. I'm not putting my priorities in their right prospective and I know that. That's why I'm trying to do something about it now. That's why I'm glad that I live so far away

So you come from the country and you only come down and work how often?
Ah - three times a year - 4 maximum

Right!
Normally I come down every few months.

And the two strokes that you had were they both while you were working?
One was due to my brother and his wife and their separation and all the pressure I had with the police being at my place and TV crews and that that I had there to help my brother get contact with his, children so he could get to see his children. I had a stroke in bed - I woke up around about 2.30 in the morning and I said to Bob I couldn't move. I was laying on my right side but I couldn't raise my left leg or my left arm or my shoulder or my neck for that matter. All I could do was lay there and wake Bob up

You asked your partner?
Yes to wake up and he woke up and said "what’s the matter?" And I said "I don't know I can't get out of bed - all one side of me seems to have gone to ,sleep" and it was like it was heavy - I was really heavy on the left side and everything was tingling

So you had a stroke?
I had a mild stroke - yes. And I didn't know until I had my second one and they put me on the cardiograph machine.

Tell us the details of your second one - how you had It and where? id she'd worked

What were you using at the time you had the stroke? Were you using speed which is amphomenes or Slow which is heroin?Or mixing?
After my first stroke my doctor put me on and plus I had high blood pressure cause she checked me for my blood pressure because I was coming off Methodone, because I wanted to be off the Methodone before I moved to the country and moved into the new home and she put me on Capiton which is a high blood pressure tablet and a fluid tablet plus I was on Zantac which are for Duodenal ulcers. They're a peptic ulcer where you bleed internally. They can be caused by smoking, too much acids or stress brings it on. Mine was stress what brought mine on and I bled internally to the point where they wanted to give me a blood transfusion. I was vomiting blood, urinating blood and passing it through my bowels. I'd lost so much blood that they took me to hospital in an ambulance. I'd suffered cold spasrns to the point that I was so cold that I couldn't move and no matter how many blankets they put on me I couldn't get warm and this is due to lack of blood or loss of blood and they couldn't even get any veins in my body to put the needle in for the serum.

is this prior to the stroke?
Prior to the stroke. This is about 6 months or I2 months before the stroke and I was in hospital for 5 days and they wanted to keep me in for another 3 days but I begged and cried and I begged them that if I went home I wouldn't get out of bed and that was a promise and I wouldn't smoke. Anyhow I got home and I did what I wanted but I took it easy plus they still wanted a blood transfusion.

So when you actually came to Melbourne what drugs were you using?
I was on Zaiitac for the ulcers. I was on my blood pressure tablets which was Capiton and then my fluid tablet. I also had been drinking wine that evening with our meal that we had at a restaurant which was only a light snack because I ended up having a salad. I'd had a whack of heroin.

Had you been using Speed at all?
I had been the day previous.

So virtually you were mixing a really bad cocktail of drugs?
Yes, I had all my tablets plus amphetamines as well as heroin. But that was I 2 hours or so before but it still stays in your system. It still stays in the blood.

So immediately prior to your stroke what happened?
Well I was sitting down

Had you just used?
Yes I had

What did you inject?
Speed- amphetomenes. I’d me tablets earlier that day and I’d had some slow and the girl next door came in and said, "I’ve got some amphetemenes and would you like some? And I said yeah..

This is in the Canterbury Road Motel?
Yes that's right.

That's where a lot of the girls were working at the time?
Yes that is right and I went into the bathroom and I'd had about $25 worth out of $50

Who do you think's bringing Speed into St Kilda?
It's coming through various different venues

There's a lot of it isn't it?
Because there's different Speed

And some of it's pretty bad?
Yes.. Well I wouldn't touch Speed to be honest with you. Because you don't know if it could be acid from a car- - battery acid.

So how long did you have the hit before having the stroke?
About I5 minutes.

So you had the hit of Speed then you had the stroke about I5 minutes later?
Yes, I sat down and lit up a cigarette and I was talking

.Did you get a rush?
Yes, and I had two mouthfulls of that really expensive Dom Perignon. You know the Dom Perignon?

Yeah - the real expensive champagne - right?
Yeah. I had two mouthfuls of that and all of a sudden the room started to spin after the second swallow from that Dom Perignon. I passed out apparently and had a fit of some kind and they rang the ambulance. The ambulance took me to the hospital - The Alfred and apparently my boyfriend rang me in the meantime looking for me. He rang the Esquire, he rang several of the motels, Pepperboard which is Bayside now, the Diplomat, and then he rang Canterbury Road and they told him that I had been there but I was no longer there

What was the result of the stroke once you recovered in hospital?
Well they told me that there was scar tissue from the previous stroke and they’d asked me how long ago did I have the last one. And I explained to them and they said that would have been the last time which was only several months earlier. I had one last year and one stroke this year.

Was that the stroke we're talking about - the last one?
Yes.

So what arc the chances of you having another stroke if you keep using drugs?
Very high.

If you had one second o go back through your entire life and change- just one second, like a gift from God- what would do in that second to change your life?
I would never have worked, never- ever have worked. I would have left my boyfriend straight hid' d of putting up with it and growing used to it away the first time he gave me a hiding instead of putting up with it and accepting it. I didn't stay with him because. I liked it I was scared to be on my own and the fear of being on your own was more greater than any hiding he could dish out. It got to the point where he'd be having girls in front of me and kicking me out of bed.

When you had your first hit where was that, a pariour?
Yes. I00 Johnson Street.

And who introduced you to the hit?
Pete's manageress - Maureen.. Lorraine was Pete’s wife.

So were you immediately hooked or did it take a while took a while
It didn't happen overnight. it took a while to get hooked.

Okay I think that's enough. This is a sort of interview so well] Finish it at the moment and we may get back on it.
Yes cause there are a couple of other things I'd like to bring up.

His girlfriend used to take heaps and heaps of pills and he told her to stop taking them. Anyway she said yes sure and no worries. Anyway she tried to stop taking them but she started taking fits. Anyway apparently she got a hold of some more - a handful of pills and she dropped a couple to stop herself from having fits. Anyway Rocky said to her "I fucking warned you to stop taking pills". She was working the same shift as me in the same parlour. Anyway - Bang! Bang! and broke her jaw in two places. Well they had to wire her jaw up right. She could take one tablet or she could take a couple of tablets but she couldn't take more. Anyway so we rushed her off to the hospital and she had her jaw wired up right and she was drinking milk shakes and stuff like that cos it was all she could have because of her jaw being wired up and she was sitting there, I'll never forget it, because she was put down the strip and only the junkies went down the strip right or if you were bad or ripped him off or something - this was his way of punishing us. Because we used to get only drunks down there.

Which was the strip again?
Nicholson Street, Carlton. It was a dump.

Are they the double storey places?
Four.

Four places all double storey?
Yeah and it was called the strip and all the girls whenever we were threatened we were threatened with going down there. Us girls used to dread it. The place had no 'heating. It had bare essentials and you froze Your- tits,-, Off. nothing but shit down there. Drunks.

What happened about the girl?
It was a had place to work and you got

Anyway. What Happened to her? We were there, this was on Friday night. Thursdays,

Fridays avid Saturdays were busy at these places and anyway the doorbell rang, Rocky came in through the back, boyfriend came in through the back, he was running four parlours ah the fuck, ran four parlours, runs the parlours right and came in through the back while she was answering the front and because she couldn't talk very well to the clients he used to go off at her rite but he broke her jaw. Anyway she'd slipped a couple of pills into her fucking milk shake right and she'd started getting pilled right so you know what he did he went through her handbag and her work bag and he found the pills. He got them, put them in a bowl and crushed them up and put them in her milkshake and sat there and made her drink the. whole fucking lot. She was so pilled off her face when she was trying to vomit she couldn't open her mouth to vomit and she choked on her own vomit and died. And we were there and we were screaming and crying to Rocky "please let us take her to hospital - let's take her to hospital'. He said 'no, leave the fucking bitch there to die fuck her". He said "she's nothing but a junky pill freak anyway." And Rocky said "if I ever hear anything said about this I will come and I'll fucking do it to each one of yous exactly the way I've done her".

So what happened to him evcntually
He's still kicking around. I've seen him. He's a short fat bloke, bald, he as ugly as sin but he's got a mean streak in him like you wouldn't believe. And Donald the guy that was shot dead, the guy that Pete hired.

What happened about that?
With Donald ? Donald got out of jail and Pete hired him to run Rathdowne Street and to pick up girls from the street down here if he was short of girls. He'd come down and the girls had no choice in it. Either you did what you were told or else you suffer the consequences. Simple as that right. And Donald didn't like junkies working for him they weren't allowed to use on the premises and he used to go through the girls handbags and workbags to make sure they had no drugs on them right and this is when the payments were being made to the cops and everything right. And Donald got a little bit uppity duppity and Pete tried to counteract him to make him get back in his place by getting Rocky

t Donald was so fucking crazy that the night I was there Rocky came in and 'tried and tried to run the parlour which Donald was in right and Donald turned around and said "you don't come into my fucking parlour- and try to push my girls around" right he said. He made Rocky get down, he held a gun to his head with us girls in the room, there was about 8 of us girls were in the room, you know Brandy?

Who's Ahi what's her- name?
She doesn't come down here very often. I forget her other name.You']] know her as soon ". you see her. The one with potholes all over her face. She gets into it pretty heavy. Her boyfriend was killed and rah rah rah! He was a heavy gangster too. Anyway, Donald held a gun to his head Rocky head and made him get on his hands and knees and made him bark like a fucking dog. Rite he made him fucking kiss his boots. When you get one crim making another crim do it in front of a bunch of working girls can you imagine what it would have started. And that was the beginning of it mate. That was beginning of it and I was so scared that when Donald or when Rocky used to walk into the room I used to look down like that. That's one of the things Rocky said to me you're one of the smart ones, he said 'you'll last a long time". And I said 'why? Why is that?" He said "because you don't lift your head and look at anybody and when people start talking you walk out. He says 'you're the only one who's going to survive out of all these girls" he said "you're going to be the only one that kicks on."

What happened eventually about Donald'?
Anyway Donald about a month later because Pete was having trouble with Donald trying to take over the parlours.

Was Donald actually working for Pete Wolf?
Yeah he was working for Pete and he tried -to take over Pete's parlours. The only thing that held Pete together was his solicitor. Because Pete was starting to panic because he had the boys coming down from Sydney and trying to take over, muscling in on him taking his parlours. Donald he hired and Donald ended up trying to take some of Pete's parlours. Rocky doing the same thing except he was a little more shiftier about it like he was up Pete's arse but he was still doing it you know going around collecting the money telling the girls and rewriting the sheet because Pete used to come and mark the sheet with his own signature and when he came around he'd see a new sheet of paper there and he'd say where's the money where's the sheet and us girls were too scared to speak up against Rocky. Rocky was taking Pete's money. Donald ended up well Pete ended up talking to these guys from Sydney right because he had to get rid of Donald. He had to so he turned around and as it turned out he hired these guys from Sydney to fucking blow him away and as he was coming out of the parlour, because Donald used to have his gun underneath the front seat of his car and it used to be parked about I5 yards from the front door well Donald as was walking out ahead of us girls ~ there was another girl in front of me and I was behind her with my bags and as I was bending down I heard him yell out "Hey cunt we coming to fix you Then next minute I heard scuffling and that and Donald was running towards his car and the guy just opened fire and went bang and shot him in the leg. Donald went down and this girl started screaming and I'm looking through the wire - I could see them but they couldn't see me right - and the guy pointed the gun at the sheila and told her to "fucking shut up and get inside". She was on her- hands and knees - she was fucking battling to get in the fucking door still screaming her fucking head off and this guy just ran up - One guy was looking around like this - the other guy just ran up to fucking Donald then put his foot rite in the middle of the back of Donald in the middle of his back as Donald tried to get up and he was still crawling to his car- trying to get to his gun and the guy just held his gun like that and just went fucking bang bang. He was shot once in the leg and twice in the head and I fucking seen it.

So what happened eventually?
The coppers came down and I told them I seen nothing. I'm not a fucking idiot. Even Pete asked me. Even got me off my face that night and everything trying to get me to tell him what happened and I told him I didn't see anything. I was out in the kitchen and I heard gun shots and the sheila that was on her belly she didn't see anything she was too busy trying to get inside and she was hysterical. Me I was in utter shock I was with me mouth open and me eyes open but I never said anything even when the coppers many years later when they were taking the coppers to court and that and they rounded up half the girls right the Feds and that they came down to Geelong where I was living in Geelong and they came and asked me. I went down the pub and met the cops there because I didn't want them around my house because mum was there and they asked me about the payments and that to Jcff Wolf and you know what I said to them? "I can't remember anything because I used to get so pilled off my face I didn't even know one day from the next!"

Was that an unsolved murder then?
Yes

They were never brought to justice?
No. They wouldn't have been able to get the guys anyway for the simple reason being that they had balaclavas on, dark blue 'jeans, runners and sweat shirts and gloves. They had gloves on.

So they were sent to assassinate him?

Involvement with the police at that time - there was massive corruption wasn't there?
Ah heaps

They were protecting Pete Wolf? How come he didn't go to jail or did he go to jail He did go to jail.
For how long?

He .was in protective custody for- 6 years.
He did 6 years?

Yes and he would have been doing a lot longer- too over a couple of murders only that he rolled over. On..

Pretty frightening stuff'
So could you imagine if they hypnotised me and put me out how I could name names, dates, I could do all that if I was put out.

Really?
But I admitted to none of it. I admitted that I was pilled blah blah btah you know what I mean. I admitted to none of it. I knew nothing, I heard nothing and I seen nothing. The copper said to me "you were pretty stupid weren't ya?" he said "you don't look too silly now!" And I said "well I've been very lucky to have very good rehabilitation' I said "I'm eating healthier and living a healthier lifestyle, I'm engaged to be married blah blah blah". You know what I mean. The cops came back and seen me two or three times because they didn't believe me but ...

That was the Feds was it?
Yes. There was not a great deal they could do for the simple reason being that I knew nothing ~ they even asked me about dates and that and I just said "look I wouldn't have a clue I was pilled off my face" and I stuck to it. I didn't deviate or vary. You know. All I kept on saying was I was pitted. I told them I was into Mandrex.

Right those days Mandrcx was the big thing Yes Mandrex and some other ...

Roll hip nols?
No I never knew anything about rollies until I came to St Kilda and like I used to come to St Kilda not to work, only to sell drugs.

You were selling drugs?
Yeah I was selling drugs for a while so that I wouldn't have to work. So I worked for 3 months and got several grand together then my boyfriend of the time he and I we bought a

half bag of heroin.
How much is half a bag?

Well he dealt with the money I didn't.
No I mean how much in street value?

Oh a lot of money I can't remember. He handled all the money, right all I did was to distribute the drugs and collect the money you know and we used to sell $I00 deals. Or we'd sell it for $350 a gram what would be round about 5 halves 6 halves and halves you could always get 2 bits per half that's how good the shit was. I used to bring down anphetoniene.-, long before I was ever into heroin I used to use a gram of Speed a day which is about 4 caps or 5 caps or 6 caps because Speed weighs different to heroin. Its a heavier drug - believe it or not.

That's a physically heavier thing?
Yes because it holds moisture.

So you don't have it in grams like do you - you still have it the same way?
Yes you still have it the same way. You don't sell It in halves - $50 deals or more you do but you see-the value of Speed is a lot lower than heroin - you can get a lot more Speed. You get $50 deal or $60 d.cal and you get a gram riglit which is 6 halves. Every 6 halves of heroin - with heroin to get a gram they're paying $2I0 to $300 to $400 a gram and you may get I hit for every half and you get about 5 halves in a gram right. It's cheaper to buy it that way then what it is to buy it by halves because you pay $50 - $60 a half which is one hit but if your're to buy a grain and get your five hits well then you've won and you're paying say roughly $40 - $35 - $30 a half instead of $50.